ENCORE: Protecting Civil and Human Rights: Advocacy and Hope with Joanne Lin

I’m honored to welcome Joanne Lin, Executive Director of Washington Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights and Urban Affairs. Ms. Lin is a seasoned attorney and fierce advocate for civil and human rights. She shares the challenges and rewards of a life committed to serving others in a contentious world. The relentless tide of global news can be a harsh reality to confront daily. Yet, amidst this, Joanne is deeply motivated to improve the lives of others. We discuss the challenges of polarization and the need to decompress and care for ourselves. We scrutinize the ironies of the digital age, where information abundance oddly narrows our worldviews, often shutting out both nuance and complexities. Finally, we underscore the sustaining power of hope and purpose.

Joanne Lin brings 25 years of experience in advancing civil and human rights at every level of government – from the local to the national to the international arenas. She started her career in San Francisco representing women and children in family law, restraining orders, and immigration matters. She later joined one of the nation’s premier immigration firms where she handled complex immigration cases, including appeals in the federal courts. She later moved to Washington, D.C. where she has led policy advocacy on women’s rights, civil rights, immigrants’ rights, and international refugee protection, at several leading human rights organizations.

At Amnesty International USA, Ms. Lin tripled the size of the advocacy team that organized Capitol Hill lobby days and a 2020 presidential candidates’ forum. She was recognized as a top grassroots association lobbyist by The Hill for four consecutive years, from 2018 to 2021. In 2021, she received the Women’s Leadership Award from the National Asian-Pacific American Bar Association.

Before joining Amnesty, Ms. Lin was senior legislative counsel at the American Civil Liberties Union for 10 years where she led ACLU’s federal immigration policy advocacy program with a focus on protecting refugees and asylum seekers, keeping immigrant families together, curtailing profiteering in immigration detention, and preventing sexual assault in immigration detention. She worked closely in concert with ACLU litigators to develop campaigns promoting prison reform, education equity, and immigration due process.

Ms. Lin is a graduate of New York University School of Law, Stanford School of Education, and Stanford University.

Joanne is Executive Director at The Washington Lawyers' Committee.

Follow me on Instagram HERE and HERE.

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Transcript

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Welcome to what I know so far. I'm Lisa McNeese. I've lived long enough to realize that I know a thing or two. And the longer I live, the less certain I am about most things. But I'm endlessly curious. I'm always trying to make sense of things. And that's what we'll be doing on this podcast, sharing what I know what I've learned, interviewing people to find out what they've learned, just trying to make sense of things together. I may not know everything. But this is what I know so far. Welcome to what I know so far, I'm so honored to have Joanne Lynn here. Joanne is an attorney and the executive director of Washington Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights and Urban Affairs. She has over 25 years of experience advancing civil and human rights at every level of government, from local to national to international. She started her career in San Francisco representing women and children and family law restraining orders and immigration matters. She moved to Washington, DC, where she's led policy advocacy on women's rights, civil rights, immigrants rights and international refugee protection at several leading human rights organizations, including Amnesty International, and the ACLU. And that just scratches the surface of incredible work that Joanne has done, in fact, invite our listeners to check out her bio in the show notes, which I know even that just scratches the surface. Joanne, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Lisa, I am delighted to be here with you and your listeners, thank you for the invitation. We met over 20 years ago, we were part of a group that went to Thailand, in April of 2001, to kind of observe the work of human rights organization and and determine whether or not the church we were both attending would go ahead and support that organization. They were working various areas, but primarily around human trafficking. And that was a really, formative experience for me. And maybe we can touch on that later. But I'm curious, what were some of your own formative experiences that led you to pursue a law degree and this type of work in the first place. So thank you, Lisa, for the question. And I to look back at that time in Thailand as an important time in my development. So I am the daughter of Taiwanese immigrants born in the United States, but both of my parents came to the United States from Taiwan in the 1960s. And they came here to pursue higher education, and ultimately pursued employment and decided to settle in the United States and create their family and raise their children here. And although my parents were both highly intelligent, and very educated, I was always keenly aware of the fact that they were not American. And they were US citizens. So when I say they were not American, it wasn't that they didn't have a US passport. But my father who had excellent English, also had a very thick accent. And it was not uncommon for me as a child to function as his so called interpreter. It was not uncommon for me to see people, hardware store clerks mocking him or be literally him because of his accent, and hurling racial epithets at him. For my mother, I was keenly aware of the fact that she gave up everything for her children and her husband. She had pursued a, a library sciences degree and master's degree at the University of Pittsburgh and, and coming out of graduate school got a job as a children's librarian at Queens Library in New York, the largest public library system in the country. But upon becoming a mother, and she's similar to women of her generation, she gave up her career. And the rest of her life was an assemblage of being a full time mother, and then piecing together various part time jobs. And so I was keenly aware of the fact that although my parents did well, in this country in many respects, and certainly had a better life here than they would have been Taiwan, that they still were not able to pursue their dreams to the fullest. They didn't have every opportunity before them. And I remember growing up and thinking that there was no excuse for me, because I was born in the United States. I had all the opportunities and privileges that come with being born on this side of the Pacific. I was fortunate to attend solid public schools in New York and California. That prepared me well for higher education. And so when it came to like, what am I going to do with my life? What am I going to do with my skills and my opportunities, I always knew that it would be in service of others, and that I wanted to do everything I could to try to improve the world around us, conditions around us so that everyone can thrive and everyone can have maximal opportunity. That's incredible that you that you took those experiences, some, like some really painful experiences, like that just hurts my heart, sort of what you have served with your dad, especially, you know, I don't like variances or any different other immigrant children and immigrant families. I think that that experience, unfortunately, is common. I think it's still common today. And that hurts my heart that we are. I think we have progressed in so many ways. But we are still so quick to be cruel at times. What are some of the, this is going to be kind of a big question, but what are some of the challenges of the work that you do for around civil rights and human rights? It is a very challenging time. And it saddens me to say that I was born in 1969. And at the time that I was born, our country had a stronger, firmer commitment to civil rights, women's rights, then the country as a whole does today. And here I'm speaking in broad strokes. I mean, there are certainly people who every day are giving their energies, talents, education, towards advancing civil and human rights for others. But there have been major setbacks in the federal courts. In our federal jurisprudence interpreting civil rights. There have been diminishment of some of the most important civil rights legislation of our time, including the Voting Rights Act of 1965. I was born into a world with a more robust Voting Rights Act. There is Today in 2024, we have seen major setbacks in the area of formative action, diversity in higher education, most recently in the 2023 Supreme Court decisions involving the challenges to the University of North Carolina and Harvard's admissions programs. I think everyone well remembers 2020, which wasn't that long ago, when the country was seized by both the murder of George Floyd before their eyes, a national reckoning on police violence, as well as the National reckoning on racial disparities and COVID deaths. And yet, we haven't seen anything positive or material come out of that terrible time. So the challenges before us are many racism continues to be a widespread, deep problem across all of American society. And I think, not surprisingly, some of this has been inflamed by, let's just say some of our national leaders, right. So for me as a mother with two teenagers who are coming into their own embarking on life as young adults. It saddens me that they are going to college and becoming adults at a time that is more rancorous than when I was 18. How do you help your children kind of navigate this world that is so complicated and rancorous, as you said, how do you prepare them to go out and to the world? I don't know how to answer that, because that is still a work in progress. You know, my children in 2015, which was when Donald Trump declared his candidacy for president, the first time, my children were then about nine and seven. So that was their first election, in terms of what they were able to remember in process. They were born into the time of Obama, but they didn't understand the significance of his election. So when they were younger, I tried to keep things from them to limit their exposure to television and news and there was before they were on social media, but as the years passed, and as it became clear that this was not a passing moment that this was something actually that our country was struggling through. And as You know, my kids were hearing it among their friends. And at school, the only thing I can say is I have tried to be a listener. For them, I want to be the place where they come to for questions where they can try to get substantive, honest answers. It has been a challenge, though, because so much of the language and the rhetoric out there is filled with hate. And that does have a toxic effect on everyone, including our souls. And we're gearing up for 2024, which many people think will be the most monumental election year of our lifetime. And it's certainly going to be a big year for the nation. One of the things that I've thought about a lot in recent years is how throughout most of history, people knew what was going on with a relatively small number of people, whoever was part of their family, their community, clan, tribe, whatever sort of word they might have used. And occasionally, maybe they would get news of a neighboring community. But for the most part, they didn't know that much about sort of the broader world, it was a very small number of people. And now through technology, we have the capacity to know what is going on all over the world, within minutes. And I believe that capacity has far outpaced our ability to actually comprehend what is happening, integrate it, absorb it in any kind of way. And there are times where I just have to tune out the news, because I'm struggling with my own life within these four walls, and just trying to get through my own day. But yet, I also want to be, I am a citizen of the world. And I want to know what's going on. And so it is a very confusing thing for me to know how to protect my own heart, and my own capacity, while still being engaged. I'm wondering, how do you navigate that? So I will answer that in a slightly different way. Lisa, I remember when the internet was like kind of first really being rolled out throughout schools and offices. And I just remember thinking it was the most transformative innovation of my lifetime. Because as you say, I could go through the internet and research any part of the world within minutes, I could read articles written by people who might otherwise never would know about, I would never learn about them in the library, I would never learn about them in the newspaper. And I thought, Wow, maybe this is really going to be an equalizing force for our country for our world. And in many respects, I think we did see some of those effects. Like I remember in the Arab spring, when images of Tahrir Square were shared all over the world, and people's phones, when we were able to see those early remnants of democratic expression being fulfilled, you know, on the other side of the world, I remember thinking, wow, this is truly transformative. Otherwise, I wouldn't even have a glimpse into this. In order to be open minded, in order to be genuinely curious, authentically skeptical, we have to go out of our comfort zone, to do more research, to do more reading, to seek out alternative viewpoints to read sources we otherwise wouldn't. And I think that's necessary to overcome the increasing polarization and to society, to break down the silos that we find ourselves in. You know, when I went to college, many decades ago now over 30 years ago, I did View College and I experienced college as a place where I met people from all over the country, all over the world, different walks of life, different experiences, and it was all eye opening. For me it was I learned as much in in my dorm halls as I did in the classrooms. And my some of my most of my lifelong friendships were formed there. But now, you know, college has become increasingly more difficult for people to access, whether it's the prohibitive costs of higher education, the changes in affirmative action that have increasingly closed the doors to many communities of color. The politicization on college campuses, where now there are, you know, college campuses in blue states or college campuses in red states and there are people who will only go to college in one of their respective chosen states. And I think that those are squandered opportunities for true exchange of information and ideas. And I think we all suffer for that. Yeah, when I was, I was in college over 30 years ago, too, which is hard to believe. But I went to a fairly insulated college, but I did go study overseas during that time, and that was my favorite part of college, was getting out of the country and going and traveling around to different countries and meeting different kinds of people. So we've been talking a little bit about some of the significant challenges of the work that you do and what we see going on in the world. I'm curious about some of the rewards that you experience in this work that you do. Oh, there are so many. I mean, Lisa, I wake up every morning clear eyed about what my mission is, I run to the office, sometimes, I'm running late. But I went to the office, because I'm excited to join my colleagues in pursuit of that mission. And for us, that mission is partnering with low income communities of color in the Washington DC region, and working with them on a wide range of issues, including disability justice, education, equity, fair housing, workers rights, criminal legal system reform, Immigrant Justice, and we are working to try to achieve advances in these issues in a way that actually achieves systemic change. So for me, it's the ideal situation, because I'm working with local communities of color here at the neighborhood level. But we're situated in the nation's capitol in Washington, DC, and we're at an organization of national impact and import. So for me, it's a joy, I get to work alongside incredibly intelligent, dedicated, talented, committed staff attorneys, paralegals advocates, who work at the Washington Lawyers Committee, all of our work is involves partnerships of the private pro bono bar. So every investigation into a prison, every lawsuit, challenging deplorable housing conditions, every workers rights clinic, all of those involve the personnel and resources of our private law firm partners. And then we work alongside other community leaders in pursuit of these goals. So the joys are tremendous, you know, when we're able to shut down a prison unit that was engaged in abusive practices, and where the conditions were deplorable. There is victory in that when we are able to obtain a settlement, which we did last year against the proud boys, the fourth largest settlement against a white supremacist organization. Based on a lawsuit we brought on behalf of a historic black church in Washington, DC that suffered vandalism and damage by the proud boys in December of 2020. That's a victory for racial justice. And for black churches, not only here in Washington, but across the country. So there are rewards every day in our work, sometimes, we have to fight a long time to get to those places. And I guess Finally, I will say that the greatest reward is working with local communities and families, because they are the ones who have to endure these conditions. They're the ones whose lives are limited by virtue of discriminatory laws. And they're the ones who ultimately have the authority and have the energy that propels our work forward. So on a daily basis, I don't have any problem going to work. In fact, they're often many a night where I'm waking up at two or three in the morning, because an idea has seized me and I want to write it down before I lose it in the morning. So yeah, I can't imagine doing anything else. professionally. I think that's so incredible. And I know that this is a podcast and listeners can't see your beautiful face, and but this smile, the joy that comes out of you and I admire you so much for the work that you're doing and all of those who who work with you, but also the resilience of your own spirit, because I'm sure you've seen some of the worst of what people can do to each other. For decades now. You still jump out of bed and can't wait to get to work to continue to do this important work and service and it's an outgrowth of who you are and that just it kind of gives me chills. It doesn't kind of give me chills. It does give me chills I it's just very moving to me. Oh, well. Thank you. So and look, I think, in the end, right? I mean, what's the alternative? I mean, these problems are going to persist, these limitations are going to endure. And for me, I'm not going to know peace and full joy unless I know that I've given all that I can towards trying to improve the conditions of this country of this world. So that, you know, equal justice, equal opportunity. So that those are realities, for all Americans, not just values are not just dreams. So before we went on that Thailand trip that I mentioned earlier, I knew very little about human trafficking. But talking with people there, I learned what a massive global issue this is. And also, we met some trafficking survivors. And that helped me understand the very personal, individual impact that it has on people's lives. I think about them, and I wonder what their lives are like 20 years later, it's bringing tears to my eyes, just thinking about the people that we met. And I remember talking with you about some of the larger systemic issues that allow like something like trafficking to even happen in our world, but also taking it to that personal level, and looking at nuances. And I imagine that that is part of what you do in your work, where you are explaining the complexity, the big picture of civil and human rights issues to people, and making it personal and reminding people that these are individuals who are impacted by immigration issues, who are refugees who are impacted by what's happening in prisons. And I'm wondering, how does that play out for you and your work in terms of messaging or conversations you have or even lobbying that you've done? Thank you, Lisa, for the question. Yes, in the nature of the work that I do, at any given moment in time, I'm always speaking to multiple audiences. Sometimes those audiences include lawmakers who may be in a position to decide the fate of the individual involved. It could be an immigration judge who's deciding whether or not to grant relief for deportation or to actually deport this person to their homeland on a permanent basis. It could be an asylum officer who is deciding whether or not to grant humanitarian protection to this person or again, whether to subject that person to deportation. Sometimes my audiences are lawmaking bodies, whether it's the US Congress on immigration, asylum and refugee issues, or it's the DC city council that handles crime bills, when there's public safety concerns and fear in the community. Sometimes my audiences include the media, whether it's national or international media covering my issues, or local reporters covering racial justice issues. And sometimes my audience is the general public, whether we're trying to raise awareness about housing discrimination, the criminalization of poverty, or whether we're trying to actually reach potential donors and supporters to give to us and to contribute to our organization so that we can continue doing the work that we do as a nonprofit public interest organization. In all of my work, I try whenever possible to speak in what I call non legalese. Locals are often criticized, rightly so for speaking in gobbly goo goo. terminology that's full of acronyms and very arcane and can be hard to access or understand. I try to encourage everyone on my team to communicate with an eye towards understanding, not with an eye towards impressing or intimidating anyone else. And the stories of the individuals involved. They are the heart and soul of the work that we do. Storytelling, I believe is ultimately necessary in any kind of successful policy campaign, issue campaign, any type of legislative or administrative advocacy. And certainly when it comes to any type of cultural change, understanding the plight of those individuals involved, personalizing it and absorbing it in a way that is real, and then digesting it. And then thinking about what each of us needs to do in response to what we've learned and heard. So those are the challenges and opportunities. Today, the advent of social media has certainly altered things where more and more people are getting their news, not from necessarily the newspaper or from CBS News but But perhaps from tic toc or, yeah. And so learning how to reach people in their respective spheres, on all sorts of different platforms. That's part of what I need to do as a leader of a civil rights organization that we have to keep up with the times and be versatile enough to adapt to the changing modalities of communication. Thank you for sharing that. I was curious to know, like, how do you get the word out? I mean, so it's just fascinating for me to hear that. And as I was thinking about our conversation today, I realized that I used to have fairly simplistic views of things. And a good example of this is the death penalty. When I was in college, I took an ethics class. And one of the things that we focused on was the death penalty. For a huge chunk of that semester, if you had asked me, the first day of class, if I supported the death penalty, I would have said yes, having given it very little thought, knowing pretty much nothing about it. But going through that class and learning about it, learning about the disproportionate number of minorities on death row LIS learning that they, most of the time, have inadequate representation, and so many other issues. Again, looking at the complexities and the nuances of it, I did a complete 180 in my thinking. And that is part of what I am trying to do throughout my life, not necessarily that I'm trying to undo everything that I've ever thought, but being willing to make adjustments, being willing to change what I thought what I believed, and it's even why I'm doing this podcast and why I call it what I know so far. And if you'd asked the 20 year old version of me what she knew so far about the death penalty, she knew nothing. But she had a strong opinion about it. And I'm grateful to be able to look back and know that I was willing to make some changes. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back here. But I think that is an important thing to do. And that is what is so crucial about work like yours is that you do give all of us more information and show us more of the complexity of these issues, and the nuances and make it personal through storytelling. I'm just curious about if anything comes to mind for you have have any of your own thoughts about something where maybe you had kind of a simplistic or thinking about something in absolutes, and then the more you learned about it, the more it sort of shifted for you. Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, Lisa, I just want to say thank you for sharing that story. And what I love about that is it's such a perfect example of the best parts of college, higher education, the idea of people coming together from diverse backgrounds, life experiences, races, countries, people who may have not have much in common, but for the fact that they are in the same campus, and coming to a class with an open mind, and an understanding of the fact that there's a lot more that we don't know than what we actually do know. And understanding that what we do know is by definition, determined by our perspective and life experience, which of course is shaped by everything I just mentioned, how we grew up, where we grew up, what our circumstances were, our family, our racial and ethnic background, all of that. And to hear that story, Lisa, that is the story that gives me hope that each of us could approach life, at any season of life, with that kind of openness, that kind of humility, understanding that we may be wrong, or we may have an incomplete picture. And understanding that the we need to be genuinely curious, with an understanding that we need to learn and know and study more. And that that is necessary in order to get as fulsome a picture of any situation or any issue. You know, when I was, I guess, at the turn of the century, in the millennium in 2000, and the advent of the internet, I was very excited about internet expansion. And I remember thinking, wow, through this innovation, I can go explore and discover any part of the world on the farthest reaches of the earth. I can go learn about those lands, those peoples the history, they can learn about me. Everything is at my fingertips. I can try to get books written in other languages that are translated into English. I really felt like the whole universe was opening up to us and I still believe that and it hurts to see what has happened in recent years. As our country has become increasingly politicized and polarized, at a time when we have more access to more news channels and new sources, people are reading fewer news sources, the world is becoming narrower for many people, more isolating. And I find that bitterly ironic, because the world that you and I were born into wasn't nearly as expansive and as as accessible as it is today. And yet, it seems like many I won't say most or all, but many people are being fed information, you know, whether that's algorithms or social media that kind of reinforces their limited understanding and perspective. And we all suffer for it. You know, we all of society suffers for it. So going back to your question about an example for me, I would say, Now, as an executive director of a nonprofit public interest organization, this is a new role for me, I came in in April of 2023. So I'm still in my first year. So I am technically what people would call the boss, the one who actually in the end, the buck stops with me. But I also am the one who has to raise all the money to pay all my employees. And ultimately, I'm the one who, if anything goes wrong, it's on my watch. And now that I'm in this role, I see how everything is much more complicated. And that there are multiple interests and multiple stakeholders, there is rarely a situation that is black and white, or simple. If it were that it wouldn't even be a situation. But that ultimately, as the executive director, I owe a fiduciary duty to the organization, it means that first and foremost, I need to think about the organization over myself or any other individual. And I have to take in the totality of all of the input, the fact, the views and try to make the best decision for all involved. And sometimes that decision is well received. And sometimes it's very unpopular. And that's what it means to be, quote, the boss. And my senior pastor recently mentioned this in a sermon, and I was talking to him about that. He said, If you want to be well liked and popular, that's easy. Go sell pizza and ice cream. But if you want to actually leave, then you need to be ready to take the heat, make the unpopular decisions, knowing that they still may be the right decisions. That's where I am right now, learning every day. And that's why as a leader, I try to go out of my way to hear the input of all of my staff, my board, external stakeholders, community partners clients, because I recognize that there's no singular view. And it's important for me to try to get the totality of the views out there so I can try to make the best decisions. Thank you so much for sharing that. And we actually have a letter from you on our dining room table from like a fundraising letter from you. And I know a couple years ago, I got an email from Amnesty International, which I've I first donated to them. I think when I was in high school, I dated a guy. He took me to a sting concert. And I think sting had some kind of booth outside about Amnesty International, and that is the first organization that I ever supported. And when I got this email from you a couple years old, an email from Amnesty a couple years ago, it said, like from Joanne Lynn, and I said from my Joanne Lynn, not that your mind, but I was like, Wait, is it? Is it? Is it still valid? I know. And so I really appreciate the work that you do. And again, as I was thinking about our conversation today, I was remembering another aspect of our trip to Thailand, and that was that we would spend our days learning about human trafficking and having these conversations that were devastating, infuriating, mind boggling, heartbreaking. So intense on so many levels. And then in the evenings, we would go have a nice dinner. There was one time where our hosts took us to a traditional Thai dance performance. And I remember that and being so captivated by the costumes and the choreography and everything. We went on a boat cruise or something down a river one day I got a couple of time massages, I went to a night market and bought some embroidered pillowcases that had elephants on them and a deep fried scorpion. There were times I just felt like I was a tourist I went for a swim under a full moon one night and it was very sort of jarring for me in a way and I felt guilty at times having you know, being With these people who had survived so much, and then I'm just gonna go off and laugh and eat some good food and have some nice conversations. I realize now 20 plus years later that we all do need to decompress. We need to replenish ourselves, we need to take care of ourselves, whatever circumstances we're in. And I imagine that the work that you do, as much as it is life giving and life affirming, and lights you up. I also imagine that it's really overwhelming at times, and discouraging. And I'm wondering what you do, to decompress, to replenish yourself to take care of yourself so that you can get up tomorrow, and give it your all again, I loved hearing all the details about that trip. And I'd forgotten a lot of those details, but you brought them all back. And those were very colorful and joyful memories. So thank you, Lisa. You know, it's interesting, by the nature of the work that I do, I'm always either working directly with people who have suffered grievous wrongs, many who are really fighting for their lives and their children's futures. But I don't find that despairing. I don't find that overwhelming. It's sometimes it's very heavy. And I sometimes I certainly have lost sleep over certain clients. But and there are others who I still pray for, because I even though I'm not in touch with them, I worry for their safety and their lives. But what I find infuriating, aggravating to no end is when our systems of law and government and Governance and politics fail. And when they are abused by people who are ultimately I would say driven by hate filled agenda. To me, that is just what kills me on the inside. Because that is not accidental. It has involved decades and decades of planning and money and concerted campaigning. And to see, you know, here we are in 2024, in the United States, the wealthiest country in the history of the world. That's where we live, you and I live in two of the wealthiest regions in the wealthiest country in the world. And yet, we still can't seem to come up with a solution that provides basic shelter to everybody in our country. We still can't guarantee a basic safe school to every child in this country, we still, the United States is obsessed with incarceration in a way that no other developed country is in this world, even though it is extremely costly, ultimately, doesn't serve anybody in the society in the long term. We all pay the costs of this obsession with incarceration, which obviously, as you mentioned earlier, has disproportional disproportionate racial impacts. That's the stuff that eats my soul and on the inside, how do I keep going? And this is a very personal, the answer to this question is personal to every person. I know when I when I've asked like my mentors, my advisors, the people who've been doing this work for decades longer than I have, who still have not lost heart or hope. I think whatever it is, that brings life to us. You know, for some people, it's reading, it's the ballet, it's biking, it's exercising, it's knitting, it's traveling, whatever it is, it's running with your dog. And so for me, I'm fortunate that I'm married to a man who's a Partner with me in all aspects of our life together. We have raised two children together, we are not fully grown, but for the most part are and we have co shared those responsibilities. We could share our financial responsibilities at home we have a common vision for our family, our life together, what its purposes where our priorities should be. So my home base is a place where I guess at least there's a place of common understanding. And that's where I returned to every night and that's where I start from every day and that's a blessing that's a gives me a rhythm and a foundation that I couldn't do without and then you know the things that give me life I love to backpack and height and mountain bike and I loved reading and I love being with friends and I love the ballet and so I you know whenever I can I try I hate to douse my life with those other life giving things, I will say it was much harder when my children were younger, there are many years over a decade where there was no space for that it was working in the office, Metro going home to pick up the kids to take them to soccer, to cook dinner, to go grocery shopping, and doing it all over again the next day. But that's that also was part of what I signed up for, as a parent and as a working parent. And I think every, every season in life, every chapter in life brings different opportunities and challenges. I'm now at a place where my children are older, they're teenagers, which is why I decided to explore this executive director position, I wouldn't have taken it when they were younger, because I have a lot of weekday evenings and weekend commitments that do require me to be you know, away from my family. But now it feels like that's the right place for this season in my life. And I'm just grateful to have this opportunity. That's beautiful. I often think about, you know, sometimes people talk about like, what is your purpose in life as though you only have one. And I think we have lots of different purposes, for different seasons in our life. And there are times where maybe your focus is more on what's going on in your home with your children. And there are other times where perhaps you are able to kind of move out into the world in a different way. And even again, as I was prepping for our call, and I was looking at a resume, and I was like, dang, that's impressive. And I know that you don't like you don't go around patting yourself on the back. But I had that moment of going wait, what what have I done with my life? What do I have to show for myself, but I know that we can't compare, we all have a different path, we all have different things that we're doing. And I love that you have mentors and people who are guiding you and reminding you that it is important to take good care of yourself, no matter what our responsibilities are, whatever, whatever our challenges are. And, you know, I think that can be, it's definitely a challenge for a lot of us to not feel guilty if we are going to take a little time for ourselves. I'm wondering, kind of as we wrap up, like, what gives you hope about the future, will certainly young people give me hope, not just my children, but their peers and young people in general. And I do feel anxious about the fact that I'm not sure we're going to be passing on a better world to my kids generation than the world you and I inherited when we were 1820 years old. And I do feel that I do feel a keen sense of responsibility. I do believe that there are always people, no matter how dark things may seem, there always are a band of people who are fighting for others who are willing to sacrifice for others, some who are willing to pay the ultimate price for others. And for me, that is an undeniable evidence of God in our world. Because I can't, and I don't understand how it could be anything else. And so that does give me hope. I still believe in, you know, many of the values that the American values that this country has long been built on quality, freedom, democracy, I think some of those terms have become very distorted in recent years, but we have to reclaim what those foundational values mean, and how we are going to rebuild those going forward. And you know, I guess conversations like this, Lisa, that, you know, it's a gift that you and I can reach out to each other after all these years and have this kind of conversation. Absolutely. There are so many technological innovations that allow us to come closer to other people. I love the story you have about Amnesty International, I've never heard that. But it's a reminder, you know, Amnesty International is an international human rights movement made up of individuals, and the story of your boyfriend introducing you to amnesty. That is the story of how a lot of rights based movements are created and grown across the world and over time. And so it gives me that gives me a lot of hope. And that we need to keep talking one on one, we can't give up on each other. I know we all have people that we feel like, oh, that relationship is over or it's hopeless or there's no point. And I have to constantly say to myself, don't give up on that person. Don't close that person out of your life. Don't judge that person. Keep the friendship channels and communication channels open because I have a lot to learn. I don't know everything that they've experienced and Ultimately, we've got to find a way to kind of bridge these, these chasms, these growing chasms between us so that we can kind of find our way back to each other and forge a common future. It seems so basic. So, so simple. And yet see, it seems so impossible right now. So, yep, those are my musings. Oh, Joanne, thank you so much for again for the work that you do. And for your time and your heart and your wisdom and for acknowledging what you don't know yet and what you're still learning and for your curiosity and for all of it, and I'm just really, really grateful and the same as you like, I just marvel at technology. It's a little glitchy sometimes or half when we were on opposite ends of the country and I get to see you and get to have a meaningful conversation. Thank you so much. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We'll talk to you soon